Liz and Jacqui interview Nobu Adilman, one of the co-founders of Choir! Choir! Choir! and Kate Rae, charter member of same. They cover singing in bars, surprise divorce, the value of beer to a singalong, The Circumstances, dealing with death, art experiments, connection, the Fredericton Pub Choir, weeknight bedtimes when you’re old, choirs that barf, tributes to music legends, the Winnipeg Beer Choir, vulnerability, and the big ball of love. (Also featuring Mike Bravener and Ian Campbell)
This episode, we ask: why do (lots of) people (who might not normally join a choir) love singing (everything from AM radio classics to Handel's Messiah) together (in pubs and bars)?
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*ADDITIONAL THANKS WE FORGOT TO INCLUDE IN THE EPISODE:
Thanks to Aaron P for his eagle ear (?) when it comes to providing QA.
Thanks to Paul McDougall for help with our original logo. Individual episode logos are all us, though. Don't blame him.
Thanks to Emilie Boucek for her sound sound engineering assistance. Both sounds intentional.
Massive, MASSIVE thanks to the wonderful Katie Jensen of Vocal Fry Studios. Her guidance was an absolute lifesaver. Hire VFS to make you a podcast or teach you some podcasting skills! You will not regret it.
S1E1 Transcript
Nobu Adilman 0:00
First off, I know nothing about this podcast. What are you guys doing? We're in a green screen room at the Toronto Public Library. What is this? This feels like an interrogation, like an artistic interrogation. Before we answer any more questions we should know what we're feeding.
Jacqui Clydesdale 0:20
Hi, you're listening to Choral Fixation, a new podcast all about singing together. I'm one of your hosts, Jacqui Clydesdale.
Liz Walker 0:27
And I'm the other host, Liz Walker. Choral Fixation is going to explore some questions like why do people love singing together?
Jacqui Clydesdale 0:34
In this episode we're going to talk to Nobu Adilman and Kate Rae of Choir Choir Choir, plus a couple of leaders of other Canadian casual choirs, or pub choirs, or whatever you want to call them.
Liz Walker 0:44
Jacqui and I got back into singing 10 years ago because of Choir Choir Choir. It was our casual choir.
Jacqui Clydesdale 0:51
That's right.
Liz Walker 0:52
We had always loved singing together; you can hear us at your local karaoke or your local Irish bar.
Jacqui Clydesdale 0:58
That's right.
Liz Walker 1:01
But this wasn't like anything that we'd ever experienced. (Yeah) and we loved it so much we're back every single week, we had such a good time.
Jacqui Clydesdale 1:10
Yeah, for sure. It got us singing again, and really it's what led to us starting to talk about having this podcast as well.
Jacqui Clydesdale 1:22
Liz and I have always been choir nerds from a very young age, we've been involved in all kinds of different choirs. So for example, I was in a church choir in my early adolescence from about 11 to 15. I was mostly in it because my best friend was in it. What about you, Liz?
Liz Walker 1:38
Church choirs and school choirs, basically, all through elementary school and middle school.
JacquiClydesdale 1:46
You know you and I were looking for a place to do a little more singing together with each other and with other friends and stuff back in the late fall of 2010. That's why we started that little singalong group. We met at a bar. We invited all our friends along, and we just had some sing-songs, which was pretty fun. I mean, there was no accompaniment; it was just for fun. We just taught each other tunes and we sang folks songs and rounds.
Liz Walker 2:08
Yeah, we didn’t, we didn’t print any lyrics out. We just sort of were sitting there, and just like, “What songs do we know?”
Jacqui Clydesdale 2:18
The only thing was because I think, I mean, it was so casual, that it was hard to keep momentum behind it. And so after what a month or two like I think we only met three or four times. And then it just kind of started to fizzle out.
Liz Walker 2:53
But then in March 2011, I heard about something on Facebook where people were getting together and they were singing pop songs and it was right around the corner from my apartment in Little Italy, and people were having a ton of fun and so I messaged you, Jacq.
Jacqui Clydesdale 3:14
We wandered in. Nobu Adilman and Daveed Goldman, they were starting up a choir like a very casual hangout, people would learn two songs. Basically Choir Choir Choir has had the same shape for pretty much the whole 10 years they've been doing it. They come to a bar with lyrics, and they teach you how to sing it in harmony with like, at that time, it was like 25-30ish people I think,
Liz Walker 3:41
Oh yeah we just stood in a really big circle.
Jacqui Clydesdale 3:42
Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Now they have more like 100 people.
Liz Walker 3:46
Yeah, and they meet twice a week in two different venues.
Jacqui Clydesdale 3:50
That's right, exactly, but I don't think like we didn't know anybody when we got there now. I walked in and you you ponied up to the bar and got yourself a beer,
You got a ginger ale. And we both got lyric sheets from this very tall blonde lady who had a plate of cookies. And that was Kate Rae.
Jacqui Clydesdale 4:06
Yeah Nobu was the guy teaching us all to sing together. He's the one who says, All right, who wants to be mids? Who wants to be highs? Who wants to be lows? Because those are the sections. Most of the time the mids do the melody, and then most of the time the highs do some oooos and the lows do some complicated harmony that I can never get so that's why I've never anywhere near them.
Liz Walker 4:30
And then for the next like hour we would just work on a song, over and over and over again. And it was so much fun because we'd be following directions from Nobu and Daveed was on guitar and Daveed would tell you when your tempo is totally off and your pickups are terrible...
Jacqui Clydesdale 4:46
Guys. That's terrible, guys, let's start again guys...
Liz Walker 4:51
Right and Nobu would be our conductor and he would just be like guys! That sounded so great. Let's just do it one more time.
Jacqui Clydesdale 4:58
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty low stakes overall like there's not a lot of pressure,
Liz Walker 5:03
And then of course at the end of every session, they would always record it, so you would be able to go back and listen to it later and hear what it sounded like and having that goal really helped.
Jacqui Clydesdale 5:12
And, of course, things like say getting a beer that also helps right like that loosens everybody up. Everybody's friendly and fun. And this all started because they had like a birthday party the year before for some friend of theirs. That's right. Yeah, they started singing Magic by Pilot, that's the one that goes, "Oh, oh, it's Magic, you knooooow" That's one one hit wonder Yeah, I vaguely remember that one.
Liz Walker 5:51
But the funny thing is that they've been going now for almost 10 years yeah. That's a long time, and it's really really evolved, like Nobu and Daveed have traveled, they've gone all over the world, they've got this touring show called Epic 80s. Yeah, and I mean they've also had the opportunity they've sung with all sorts of celebrities now like Patti Smith and David Byrne.
Jacqui Clydesdale 6:08
They post regular videos of themselves online and they're really beautiful and Tim McCready shoots them they look really great yeah, this is all just from like a casual hangout singing and drinking beer and having fun.
For these interviews, the ones we did with Nobu and Kate, and the other leaders of the choirs— we started doing them back in February of 2020 back before COVID-19. Back when we didn't think anything about getting together and singing in public. The rest we recorded and edited separately. During the after times or one of my friends calls The Circumstances, capital T and capital C.
Liz Walker 6:52
You know, since this pandemic has begun, we have been seeing some really heartwarming footage of people singing together out on the street or from their balconies or from their windows. I mean, singing is such an amazing source of comfort and joy for people in difficult times and it is so crappy that people can't get together right now and actually share that.
Jacqui Clydesdale 7:16
Yeah, I know,
Liz Walker 7:17
But nature finds a way, and people aren't singing anyway they can.
Despite Nobu calling it Choir Choir Choir he says he's not really a choir person.
Jacqui Clydesdale 7:53
I know, I know,
Liz Walker 7:54
Doesn't really come at it from a choir perspective.
Jacqui Clydesdale 7:56
Yeah, that's interesting.
Liz Walker
In this episode we're gonna untangle what that kind of means. But first we want our listeners to meet, Kate Rae.
Kate Rae 8:15
My therapist always talked about change and how change doesn't have to be big, that if you drop, you know, a pebble in something then the ripples take over right. So I knew I just had to change something and I knew I had to. And it did.
Jacqui Clydesdale 8:28
So Kate was there on the first night of Choir Choir Choir, not the birthday party, but the first night that they met at the real estate office, you may have read about, it's down on Queen West in Toronto, and she can testify as to how it would change her life.
Kate Rae 0:00
So I was very depressed. My husband had divorced me. Surprisingly. Like he surprise-divorced me. So I was really sad for a really long time and Nobu and I've known each other since we were 13 and we went out for dinner and he was like, holy shit you're saying some dark things because I was a dark, in a dark dark place. And then a couple weeks later he said, Look, I'm doing this thing, he sent me an email, like you need to come...
Nobu Adilman 0:27
Yeah, those were...it was like if you were to ask me to like show like to recognize Kate from a picture from that time, it'd be like just tears, constant stream of tears and just like, physically just kind of like not like the most
Kate Rae 0:42
it wasn't even, I was numbed out like, when you when you reach that level of depression, and you're just like, you don't feel anything and you don't... And so I went to the first night. So it was down at the Bosley real estate office on Queen and it was a snowstorm and I'd ridden my bike from Cabbagetown across town to go to it. And I went to my therapist the next day and I said, this is going to change my life. And I didn't know how and I didn't know what you know, but it was like I knew this was going to change my life. And boy did it ever, didn't it?
Liz Walker 1:16
Kate's old friend Nobu was also searching for something that he had lost along the way. He'd come back to Toronto after years in the East Coast City of Halifax and his creative ambitions were sort of stifled.
Nobu Adilman 1:37
2011 I was transitioning out of a television career, you know, I was in it for like, full time. 15-20 years like that was my whole thing from after school. And my luck was kind of running out in a way. I was still dealing with the death of my dad. I mean, when do you stop dealing with that, but I was like, kind of like still, I was sort of in my own kind of numb thing. But choir like it was really just about getting friends together so it was I was still in that mindset of like I just want to do things, get friends together, and hang out.
Kate Rae 2:09
And at first it was really like everyone who was at that first one it felt like a real all your East Coast friends. Right?
Nobu Adilman 2:16
A lot of that crew. Yeah, yeah and that's why I did that. It was just an extension of what I would do in Halifax although we would all do in Halifax. Like it wasn't just music, it was like helping people with their films or you know, like having an Easter dinner and making a film, like leading up to it in-camera editing, like, and then loosely--The plot is what do we know about Easter? And then we just like would run around town getting all the supplies to make the dinner. But like along the way, we kind of crafted the story like minute to minute, and we were always looking for ways to like build a narrative around whatever the hell we were doing right? We made a few films one called Easter, Easter, Canada, Canada
Liz Walker 3:02
Choir is like art, therapy and exercise all rolled into one. You will hear me say that more than once on Choral Fixation, the podcast. Word got around though, and they quickly grew from like 25 people to 50 people...75 people.
Jacqui Clydesdale 3:20
Yeah, we sang that spring, Do you remember? At a fundraiser for the victims of the Japanese tsunami. Yeah. You can see on the video if you go on to Choir Choir Choir's YouTube channel. You can see Kate Rae with her long, blonde white ponytail.
Liz Walker 3:35
She's on there. We're singing "Falling Falling Falling..." She was always easy to spot at choir night, even when there was like over 100 people crammed into a sweaty bar because of that ponytail.
Jacqui 3:46
Yeah, absolutely.You can spot us singing and swaying together. You can tell that we've been you know, we've been moved by the Spirit. We really we've been converted by Choir Choir Choir.
Liz Walker 3:57
Singing was such a thing. I loved how it felt. After we worked on a song for an hour, and then we would belt out this flawless version for the recording because we would always record it at the end of the night. I always felt like we had accomplished something as a group. Strangers!
Jacqui 4:16
Yeah, absolutely.
Liz Walker 4:17
It felt powerful.
Kate Rae 4:19
I used to love at the beginning where people would come because I felt so fanatical about it. And when people would come and they would look at me afterwards with this, it was like I said to Nobu Daveed, so within a year, you're going to be on the cover of Toronto Life wearing robes. Like a new Messiah, is like I because I there was such a fanaticism to it. And there was this look that people come up to me, they're like, what was that? I'm like, I know. And it happens every week. Like it's so crazy.
Jacqui Clydesdale 4:47
Yeah, that feeling that there was a magic going on was real. I'd been in like school choirs and church choirs before, but nothing like that.
Liz Walker 4:54
So was it just the song choices?
Jacqui Clydesdale 4:58
I don't know. I mean, You'd never hear a church choir sing like a Steely Dan cover that's for sure
Liz Walker 5:03
Not even a school choir
Jacqui Clydesdale 5:05
Maybe back in the 70s…. Langley school music project.
Liz Walker 5:10
Well that reminds me we're gonna have to do an episode about the Langley school choir
Jacqui Clydesdale 5:13
Yes we thought of the same thing. Of course we did!
Liz Walker 5:25
Well the thing is that Jacqui, neither of us read music
Jacqui Clydesdale 5:28
That's right that's right we don't.
Liz Walker 5:30
And being somebody who doesn't read music although I love to sing I've always felt a little like I was I was a little incapable I was not I couldn't jump in.
Jacqui Clydesdale 5:41
Yeah, like we're always lagging a little behind
Liz Walker 5:44
Right because I'm like listening to pick up things. I know when a key changes but I don't know what it's changing into.
Jacqui 5:54
Yep, absolutely.
Liz Walker 5:55
But at Choir Choir Choir it was just highs, mids and lows. I mean, you listen a couple times. And they don't use any jargon. There's no barrier for a person who has no idea what they're doing.
Jacqui 6:07
That's right. And we've heard a lot of these songs so many times before, especially at the beginning when we started going, they were those AM radio classics that we knew so well.
Totally and there is beer, and it lowers inhibitions I've heard, I think that might be key. Anyway. Let's listen to Nobu describe, let's listen to him describe what he calls this thing, Choir! Choir! Choir!
Nobu Adilman 6:26
I mean, I had never been in a choir before. I had never sung in the choir before we started this thing. We're not coming. We didn't come at it from a choir perspective. But I think the big difference between if you try to encapsulate it into one sort of simple statement, we did not approach Choir Choir Choir, as a choir, we approached it as a party. And we're hosting a party and you want people to feel comfortable to feel like they are part of something and that everyone should know everyone else at a party. That You know, like, and that when you walk into a space that a friend has organized something, and you feel so comfortable that you'll talk to anybody, because you're like, we, all I know is I wanted to create an environment where everyone wants to meet each other, everyone wants to hang out. And then like, whatever you do is secondary like, like, really?
Liz Walker 7:20
So Jacqui, if you like remember him talking about his Halifax art experiments, he named
Jacqui 7:27
Easter, Easter
Liz Walker 7:29
And Canada, Canada. I mean, Nobu is really I think he's really posing a question about like, the shape and meaning what is this thing we call Easter? What is this experience we call Canada? And so with Choir Choir Choir, he's asking what is a choir?
Jacqui 7:43
Especially since you know he already told us that he's not a choir person. Oh that's a Yeah, that honestly that that caused us both to go HUH when he first said it right.
Liz Walker 7:58
Yeah. Let's let's let him explain himself.
Nobu Adilman 8:05
I mean, I think that it goes back to your talk, you know, the whole reason for this podcast, which is why singing, you know, And singing is because singing is a way to vent and it's it's a way to exorcise and exercise and I think that it makes you feel active just like going for a walk. And singing is one of those exercises that you can do but then you attach it, songs have so much meaning to you and they change over time and you grow older and the song changes that meaning because you learn things and the lyrics, things change. And I just say our connection to music is, is integral. It like, you know, it hits us on so many levels intellectually, emotionally. Singing makes you feel like you're connected to other people.
Liz Walker 9:04
So it is a choir? Because they're singing together?
Jacqui 9:06
Yeah. I mean, just like the podcast, we don't want to focus just on choirs, actually, you know, it's called Choral Fixation. But it's, it's all about the impulse that we all have to sing together. We're interested in all the ways that people do that, whether they're at a football game, or at a protest or at a funeral.
Liz Walker 9:25
Right. So when they are saying that they're not like choir people, I think they just weren't ever planning on taking their trained audition choir to the Kiwanis Music Festival, I guess.
Jacqui 9:37
The Kiwanis Music Festival of our youth. indeed. Of course. That's right. I mean, part of it part of Choir Choir Choir being an open-ended experiment means that Nobu and Daveed just keep doing it because it's fun, and they want to see where it's gonna take them.
Nobu Adilman 9:52
I mean, I think that the great thing about not having any expectations or any motivation behind doing something is that you're constantly surprised if something happens, you know. Most things I've done professionally have started out as fun things I've done with my friends, right, which is unusual and sets a bad precedent for me, you know, in terms of expectations of what could happen. Choir is an extreme example of it. And I think that that's a good thing. People will contact us. And they're like, I love what you're doing. Tell me how to do it. I'm gonna hire this person to play guitar, I'm gonna do this person, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna business this up, and it's gonna be super successful. And we're gonna do this. And I'm just like, not interested in talking to you. Because like, the only thing I want to tell you is just do it! Call it something else and do it. Like, that's more interesting to me. So, sort of a way of saying that, no, I've never had expectations. I'm constantly surprised even nine years later that things are still going. I don't know. It's for me. It's always about people. And it's always about activities that you can do that bring people together that you couldn't do on your own or that kind of thing, that's, that's the thing. I'm super proud that people are inspired by us who come out to events. And I'm really happy that other people are inspired enough to take the concept of what we do, which is a very simple concept and do it in their own communities. You know, I'm super proud of it, you know.
Jacqui 0:00
A lot of people have walked out of a Choir Choir Choir show or seen their stuff online and been completely inspired like Nobu said to bring it to their own hometown. So with that in mind, I reached out to Mike Bravener from the Fredericton Pub Choir in my home province, and Liz's home province of New Brunswick. They grew out of the Halifax pub choir, which is called The Big Sing, which was, you know, directly inspired by Choir Choir Choir, and Mike got called in because he plays guitar and their group needed a hand.
Mike Bravener 0:28
So I went and I saw these people and they were having fun and it was meeting new people. And I thought this, this is an incredible thing. Because people are getting out on a weeknight. It's not, you know, it's not really serious. There's not a whole lot of pressure put on anybody. And we can, we can laugh, we can have a lot of fun. Just, you know, with the times these days, it's a lot of serious stuff going on, it seems in the world, and so take to get away for an evening early, have a beer or two, sing some fun songs with a bunch of friends and meet new friends. It gets your mind off of all of the stuff that you know is going on every time you turn on the news. And so, I think people are coming and they're just realizing that it's a lot of fun connecting with other people. And music, I'm convinced is a universal language. It's something that every living every living thing has music in its life, whether it's the birds singing in the trees, or it's the frogs in your pond or, or whatever, there's music everywhere. And so we're drawn by music. And and the other thing that I found why I think it works is I've met so many people who were always told that they can't sing. They come to pub choir and they realize, hey, listen, how good we sound and then they watch the video of what we we take and I think I can sing, you know what, this sounded really good. And we've had some really magical moments in the last oh the last two or three months I would say we're, I don't know if it's because more people or maybe people are, we're just getting better at what we're doing. But there's those moments when you just close your eyes and you can hear these beautiful sounds and it really makes you stop and and you feel you feel really, really good.
Liz Walker 2:32
Mike has said something really important that I want to get back to. Having an activity early in the evening is really important once you get old.
Jacqui 2:45
Absolutely
Liz Walker 2:45
I'm not going out for 10 o'clock anymore. Come on.
Jacqui 2:47
No, no, no, I want to be home. I want to be home by 10. I do not want to go out on a weeknight.
Liz Walker 2:56
I need eight hours of sleep. Actually Mike said something really important that I actually really do want to go back to...
Jacqui 3:05
I think I know what you're getting.
Liz Walker 3:08
So many people have been told that they can't sing Jacqui,
Jacqui 3:11
Ah, I know. I know. We hear it all the time people come up to us when they find out that we're doing this or that we sing in choirs or that we're, you know, we're having a podcast about singing together. And they're like, Yeah, no, I can't sing. You watch shows like, American Idol or whatever. It just, I feel like it's made the idea of trying in that way totally, totally vulnerable and horrifying. When people sort of mock it and totally
Liz Walker 3:38
Oh my god, god, it is hard enough in this world to just try something. So the message that this culture is giving us is just like, sit down, shut up and consume what you're given. You know, maybe you're gonna get to vote on who the best singer is, but this criteria is so screwed up. It doesn't even matter. It's a negative experience for absolutely everybody. Especially the kid who is sitting on the couch, who likes to sing but doesn't want people to laugh at her or tell her to just mouth the words.
Jacqui 4:08
And I think that's a huge part of these casual choirs like their appeal told right now. Absolutely. Yeah. Like for Choir Choir Choir, if you catch them on their touring shows, they're rolling into town. They put up their circus tent and they're like, get inside everybody. There's room for everybody here. There's no room for shame. That's right. Like, let's just sing.
Liz Walker 4:28
Bring your dancing shoes.
Nobu Adilman 4:30
I don't want to work too hard to convince somebody to be there, though I do ask at the larger shows that the touring shows are like, Who here was told at a young age never to sing in public? And always some hands go up and Daveed goes, did somebody actually say that to you? And I say, Well, this night's for you. This is for you. And it's for all the people who think that they're good singers because you probably will not but like we're gonna we're all gonna hang out and have a good time. You know, just taking the pressure off because it's like, why is singing so like Why? Why is it so scrutinized whether you're a good singer or not? Who gives a shit? You know? Like, are you good person? Do you like to have fun? All right, well, let's, let's party. Let's, let's party. Exactly. You know, like, Why do people feel like, I feel like it's like they're so focused on all their faults? Like, I got a shit ton of faults and, and, you know, like well like am I gonna like let it stop me from experiencing something that could be fun? I mean Daveed and I both say that we would never have joined a choir unless we started it. Like so it's like it's also personality based in terms of what you're what you're into doing, you know, but I don't know. I just feel like Why be so I don't know why I place that kind of pressure on yourself. You know.
Jacqui
Do you think it's a little weird that Nobu thinks that, like, he associates choirs with pressure that way? Like does that seem, does that seem strange?
Liz Walker
Actually I don't think that Nobu is the only person who associates choirs with that pressure to be perfect. I was just looking at the cover of Pitch Perfect and realizing, I was like, oh it has to be perfect
Jacqui
Pitch has to be...right there and then
Liz Walker
If you do that wrong then you have failed. I guess that that is definitely a part of that choir culture. Yeah. You know he has said a bunch of times in a different bunch of different places Daveed and I would never join a choir unless they started it. I think choirs have got some perceived barriers like people kind of think that they're like University choirs and they're singing the 16th century and the Latin.
Jacqui
Yeah, those are great, I love those , or like are people think choir is just the Ladies' Auxiliary, and they meet after luncheon and they sing Kumbaya.
Liz Walker
That was a really good
Jacqui
But I have been in that choir too.
Liz Walker
Or like the crazy choir from from from Pitch Perfect where people vomit before they go on. That's right. So the perception of choirs is that they have to be like, technically amazing...
Jacqui
Yeah, or religious...
Liz Walker
Or kind of middle class and kind of middle brow. Yeah, yeah I think these casual choirs that were that we're seeing pop up they're a great way to storm the barriers on both sides.
Jacqui
Yeah, so I talked to Ian Campbell, who is the co-director of the Winnipeg Beer Choir, and he and his other co-director Katie Harmer, they met at a choir directors conference, and they heard about this thing called beer choirs and they wanted to try one out in their own community. And so, they went from choir director formality to something a lot more casual. Now when I talked to him I should point out, there's something up with his phone I think and so the quality of this, this little conversation we're about to hear is not super great but you can still hear.
Jacqui
Would you say that you've had the same crew of people and you've just built on them kind of thing? Or have you seen big changes over the last three years?
Ian Campbell 7:33
You know, the first event that we did was all people that we knew that we talked to and said, Oh, this sounds cool. So we went to, we were doing our Masters in Conducting as we started this, and our professors and our colleagues and that was fun because we knew everybody, and the next day we were kind of celebrities. The next one we didn't know a soul. We'd done a bunch of Facebook marketing, and we tried to get the message out on the local radio station. The different classical music, things and it was terrifying because we knew that our friends weren't coming. And then the whole crowd of people materialized and sort of perpetuated itself, which is people who have sung in choirs before. They don't have time to commit to a choir, or people who just like coming out, and like being silly with a whole group of people. Or not taking things too seriously.
Liz Walker 8:49
I love that and you told me that they've done Handel's Messiah. And so popular classical favorites like Ode to Joy, which is a total boot stomper. Absolutely. They do silly songs about drinking beer, and it sounds really fun and really unique.
Liz Walker 0:00
So you are listening to Choral Fixation. It is a podcast about music that we sing together.
Jacqui 0:06
If you need a little help setting the music free, why not grab a beer? We've talked a lot about beer and how it contributes to good singing. Well, louder singing anyway. Loosen up that singing voice Spark Beer is a new craft brewery in Ottawa and they're making hoppy, brett and sour beers I don't know what that means Liz but I'm sure you do. Normally we would encourage you to visit their tasting room on Somerset street in Ottawa, but of course because of current circumstances it is closed. But they are offering local delivery for free within a 10 kilometer radius of Somerset street in Ottawa with a minimum $30 order so instead of visiting them in real life, you can visit spark dot beer, which is like a pretty great URL. I know it's spark dot beer. You can place your order there, and then choose the delivery option in the checkout and include your address and phone number and all that jazz. And they will deliver you some tasty brewskis, which you can drink while you sit in your own place, or on your own porch and sing. Maybe you can find a Choir Choir Choir online event on Facebook, and join in. Have we mentioned the beer? It helps.
Liz Walker 1:16
Speaking of helping, we'd also like you to remember that as the COVID-19 pandemic continues, it's putting a strain on families across the country, food banks are helping to ensure that vulnerable Canadians are still receiving vital food support during this difficult time. Food Banks Canada is launching a special 150 million dollar appeal to help ensure that food banks can continue their critical work. \Youcan donate to them online at foodbankscanada.ca, and the funds are used to bulk purchase and distribute food and share resources with food banks across the country.
Jacqui 1:48
Awesome.
Liz Walker 1:54
So Jacqui, I think what we're seeing is that when singers aren't trained in any sense, then a conductor really can't say to 100 or 500 or a thousand people that they have to turn to measure 32. David Byrne, no slouch as a professional musician from the Talking Heads. He performed David Bowie's Heroes with Choir Choir Choir after David Bowie died, and he described Nobu's unschooled conducting technique in an online post where he was describing the whole experience and I want to read it to you.
Jacqui 2:26
Okay
Liz Walker 2:26
Because I think it really, really captures what being in the room with Nobu is like. "Nobu is an amazing conductor. I asked a friend how that experience was, and was told that he makes you feel safe, his arm movements, often follow the shapes of the pitch, up and down, and he gives looks and gestures that anticipate changes in the arrangement, a look and a body lean will let everyone know Heads up! The next section is coming up in three seconds.'"
Jacqui 2:59
Yep, absolutely. That's what I remember from being in Choir Choir Choir, participating is looking up and seeing Nobu's head just bobbing up and down and up and down and his arms going up and down, and it was always very organic way to like join in. And so while that's, yeah, like, that's not exactly what I think of as a safe space but I, I get what I get what's being described there it's it you feel very safe when you see someone confidently in sort of organic lead.
Nobu Adilman 3:28
What I love nine years in is that people come and they can't figure out how we do it. And we have now sort of honed our techniques and it's always changing but like the core like we understand it way more now than we used to. But again it's never static so we can always learn so it's like that idea it's like something better. It could be happening at every moment, you can enjoy it and grow this, you know, how can we make it sound even better, but I love the fact that people come in and what's gonna happen, and they're still like, how did that happen at the end of it, and they feel really good. It's a really, it's, I never want to really solve that.
Kate Rae 4:06
And in those early days, the fact that it was something I could go to alone was huge because there's not a lot of things like that in Toronto or anywhere like that you could walk in and you could stand beside somebody and you'd have something to focus on so you weren't like speed dating sitting across from each other, whatever, but just that you could stand beside each other, you could say what's that note you could get a drink like that's huge to have a social thing that you can go to by yourself.
Nobu Adilman 4:34
Right. Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's, I feel like, and I agree, like the emphasis on song is important. But, in some ways, like, you could sub out the singing part and make it an interactive night about cooking, but I feel like it's about a conversation. And it's about people connecting with each other. It's about all these things, so we do it through song, but honestly I just feel like it could be anything.
Kate Rae 5:04
But it's it's the laughter aspect of the two of you that's enormous that you guys create this welcoming funny atmosphere. And when people start laughing how much safer they feel or how much happier they feel or, like, it couldn't just be a dry cooking show thing.
Nobu Adilman 5:20
It's incredible what laughter does, it does really create a positive force field around yourself and around a group of people. I feel like what's beautiful about the singing is that it's just going all of our energy is going somewhere and it's like, sometimes it connects and sometimes it doesn't. And I feel like we're just creating this big ball of sound that of love and, and it's complicated, you know, but it's it's like everyone's I think that's the beautiful thing is everyone can contribute to it, you know.
Liz Walker 5:47
I mean, no wonder people want to experience that and they want to participate right like again this is not watching TV on your couch, it is being active and you're making something beautiful.
Jacqui 5:59
Absolutely feeling safe is really truly the only thing that allows you to do that to get there, right, you got to feel, you know, able to be vulnerable and open up for anyone who might not feel like singing like whether it's because the grade three music teacher told you to mouth the words. Exactly, or because you're having a bad week at work or because you know your husband just surprised divorced you.
Liz Walker 6:23
I mean, Kate got to move from a place of hurt and vulnerability to a place of openness and connection. I know she loved going to choir, and she said it helped move her out of her depression.
Jacqui 6:36
Yeah, but more than that it moves someone into her life and another way too.
Kate Rae 6:41
He was standing beside me and I said to him, he came to stand beside me and I said, Can you handle the high ooooos? and he said i think i could handle high oooos and I'm like okay, and that was that. Wow.
Nobu Adilman 6:51
Yeah, I would say you are our poster children for strangers falling in love. Yeah.
Jacqui 7:06
And so after sharing lyric sheets and singing they started dating...
Liz Walker 7:11
Wait Jacqui.... Are you saying this is a they got married and lived happily ever after story?
Jacqui 7:15
Absolutely. Congratulations Kate and Shaun! They've been married, well they've been married for five years.
Liz Walker 7:22
Congrats Kate.
Liz Walker 0:02
As for Choir Choir Choir, they found themselves, sort of, in the spotlight after David Bowie died suddenly in January 2016.
Jacqui 0:09
Oh that's right, David Bowie. That's right and then Prince
Liz Walker 0:16
They found themselves suddenly leading hundreds and then thousands of people in these big singalongs and they were mourning and celebrating the lives of these artists.
Jacqui 0:25
Yeah, that's right, and then Leonard Cohen died, and they saying Hallelujah with Rufus Wainwright,
Liz Walker 0:30
And then Gord Downey died.
Jacqui 0:32
Oh my god Gord
Liz Walker 0:33
For listeners who aren't familiar with Gord Downey, his songs with the Tragically Hip, it's kind of a band that defines Canadian music, after announcing that he had terminal brain cancer, the band did a cross country tour yeah it was huge.
Jacqui 0:46
It was huge.
Liz Walker 0:47
And then they did a televised concert...
Jacqui 0:49
Like honestly I'm getting choked up thinking about it now because it was, it was astonishing to watch this man who had very publicly gone through cancer and brain cancer and we knew that he was dying, and we knew that he was saying goodbye for us and to us, and that concert was honestly one of the most astonishing displays of vulnerability I've ever seen in my life.
Liz Walker 1:21
And so after he died people really needed to connect with each other. Choir Choir Choir did a show here in Toronto where they were playing with members of the band. And people just really really needed to sing those songs out loud.
Jacqui 1:37
Yeah, talking about that David Bowie tribute. He said that like he's really humbled, in the way that Choir Choir Choir has kind of dovetailed and coincided with a lot of these moments and allowed people to to participate in history. There's a lot of media attention around all of those. You've seen Nobu and Daveed, things like want to challenge what a choir can do and what it can mean to people.
Nobu Adilman 2:02
We're always trying to think of ways to, to, to put on events that have larger meaning, you know, and if anything requires an opportunity to go to, in real life go to an event, and meet people, you wouldn't normally meet and have conversations you may not normally have, you know, getting off the internet and being able to discuss things with people. Yeah, but being able to be part of current events, part of this conversation about what's happening what's happened in the world. That's not musical is really a) severely unexpected and b) it extends the conversation about what's possible and I don't think it's pretty. I'm not really all that eloquent about it right now but it's just adds to the humility of the whole thing, you know.
Liz Walker 3:00
I found listening to some of this tape really painful because Nobu had just been telling us how he and Daveed were really just starting to think of Choir Choir Choir as this regular gig and it was allowing them to really think about the things that they could do and do different stuff like the, the US-Mexico border show that they did and the 911 Memorial show that they did. They were always trying to find new things that they could do to bring people together.
Jacqui 3:29
Yeah, bringing people together like months later, it just seems like a total dream right like everything from their weekly Toronto games, they can't do, and right up to and including this Epic 80s touring show that they were going to do in Europe and in the UK this Fall.
Liz Walker 3:46
But Choir Choir Choir has moved online and they're doing their weekly Choir-intine singalongs yeah and they've had like over 10,000 people joining them.
Jacqui 3:58
Yeah, yeah. I joined them at one point. And so I followed up with Nobu at the end of April, and he's been thinking a lot about what Choir Choir Choir is, was and can be.
Hey Nobu it's Jacqui. How are you? How are things? I feel like every conversation these days starts with like, "No How are you? You know what I mean like?"
Nobu Adilman 4:19
I usually answer the question pretty honestly. I'm just sort of hunkered down like so many other people trying to stay somewhat balanced, because it's a really crazy change, you know. Oh, it's pretty it's pretty damn real so it's hard to avoid, so it's a bit of a struggle but you know.
Jacqui 4:43
When you guys talk to us when you and Kate talked to us back in February, you called Choir Choir Choir, Kate called it a force field and you called it a big ball of love at one point. Do you still feel the big ball of love, man?
Nobu Adilman 4:56
Of course I do,it is, I've actually had to kind of, I mean definitely like a bit of denial, I mean as much as I needed time to to be quiet and to not move around as much and to, you know, just have some alone time. This is way more extreme than I could have ever imagined. You know we haven't done a weekly Choir Choir Choir a couple months. And that's weird. You do something every week, if not more for, you know, close to 10 years you know even if I don't know everybody comes to our weeklies, you feel that energy in that culture is so important to our lives for so many different reasons. And now, we're not able to get together and you know I push it. I try to push it out of my mind how much I miss those sessions how I miss like camaraderie, how I miss seeing other people discover Choir Choir Choir and be that sense of recognition in their faces where you see that they see something for themselves they're like even if you don't really talk to them but you've seen them out a few a few weeks in a row and you can definitely feel like they're getting something good out of that. I guess there's so many different ways that we communicate that ball of love. So it's pretty heartbreaking that we can't do that right now, and I do feel disconnected from everybody because, because that's the real stuff, but at the same time. I feel like that heart, that center, the heart of our choir is still very strong, and I feel like it's just being communicated in a different way right now.
Jacqui 6:38
It was great to talk to them but it was a tough conversation and,
Liz Walker 6:41
I mean, no matter what you're doing. We're all missing our people right now.
Jacqui 6:44
Exactly. But do you remember back in April I sent you a tweet that Nobu had put on Twitter and said something like, there wouldn't be any shows until 2021 and then he said something like, Can you imagine the unimaginable? Like that's what his experiments are! He imagines things other people can't and he creates things that other people can't so
Liz Walker 7:05
Well we were in the middle of editing this and, and we were just like, Oh, we got to get him on the phone, we got to talk to him.
Nobu Adilman 7:12
As we're seeing now connection happens digitally as well. And without digital means I think we would all be in a deeper crisis than we are not being able to reach out and feel the energy from other people. So, in many ways, I feel like the Choir Choir Choir does can still reach people in a meaningful way. It shifts in terms of what we're able to do but then the situation that we're in now forces us to think way outside of. We can't replicate necessarily what we do in real life. We have to find new ways to find that connection to who you know and to try to make it meaningful.
Liz Walker 7:57
I think that these, these quarantine sessions like they're letting people express everything that's inside of you know music really gets gets to you, and lets you, lets things out, it lets things out, you need to get out.
Jacqui 8:12
That's right. In the same way that those, those tribute concerts did, yeah. And, you know, it's really astonishing to see Nobu and Daveed again doing their thing. Watching the parts that are familiar when we're watching them online and seeing how they're adapting, he told me about how he feels doing these, these quarantine concerts.
Liz Walker 8:32
It must be so different for them.
Jacqui 8:34
It is, yeah.
Nobu Adilman 8:35
On a personal level for Daveed and I they've been, they've been centering, because what we do is, what we're used to us performing five, six times a week. And so for us to be able to do some version of Choir Choir Choir online has allowed us that one hour a week where we feel like we're doing what we're supposed to be doing, you know? We got a, we got a rush from it even though it's just the two of us, performing for a computer or a camera. In that hour we're accountable for putting a show on. We've been able to reach people. We're never able to make it out to our shows, which is a really beautiful thing we've. I think that more people know about us now in the last four or five weeks five six weeks because of these Choirintine sessions that we've done. So it's been, you know, it's been beautiful on a number of different levels and
Jacqui 9:25
People are always compelled to sing together no matter what that looks like, I think.
Nobu Adilman 9:29
Totally in a sense the best message right? So it's it's just, it's hard not to smile.
It's a time when you can really, really envision what your life is going to be. Because, I mean, at least from my perspective, like, if it's really true that we won't be able to be able to get back on stage until fall 2021. That's an entire lifetime. And I don't know if we can't figure out how to survive online. There's financial survival but then there's also like soul survival. If we can't kind of make it work for what we feel like this next chapter is then it forces a reassessment. That's water that I have yet to really dive into but at least I mean I'm definitely aware, and also because it's a kind of a gift, you know in a weird sick way to have time to actually think about what you're doing in your life, you know?
Jacqui 10:29
So ultimately I think Nobu is dealing with the Choir in quarantine in much the same way as he did before. Like he's keeping things open. He's staying curious. You know he's always a little on edge, a little scared. But he's always looking for connection, and he stays really grateful and humble.
Liz Walker 10:47
You know that doesn't actually surprise me.
Jacqui 10:49
I know exactly.
Liz Walker 0:00
We want to thank first and foremost Nobu Adilman and Kate Rae from Choir Choir Choir. You can find them on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, so thank you Nobu and Kate for sharing your time and your stories with us in that weird Green Room at the Toronto Public Library.
Jacqui 0:15
Which reminds me, thank you to the Toronto Public Library for being an incredible resource we really really appreciate being able to book a studio with just our library cards.
Liz Walker 0:24
And thanks to Mike Bravener of the Fredericton Pub Choir for his enthusiasm, and his thoughtful insights on leading a group of singers. We should be clear that he doesn't do it alone. The Fredericton Pub Choir is a coordinated effort, and it includes the talents of Wanda Parsons, Karen Lake and Vanessa McDougall. You can find info on the Fredericton Pub Choir on Facebook.
Jacqui 0:44
Thanks also to Ian Campbell, for sharing his experiences and perspectives about starting and leading the Winnepeg Beer Choir Ian and his co-director Katie Harmer lead everyone in singing classics such as The Wild Rover and silly songs from the Beer Hymnal every six weeks or so, when things are, you know, less quarantiny, they are planning a night of songs by composers who begin with B, so good luck with that.
Liz Walker 1:12
Thanks to our sponsor Spark Beer in Ottawa. Don't forget to put a little spark in your song. And please if you can think about donating to your local food bank, you can find one at foodbankscanada.ca
Jacqui 1:24
As always you can reach out to us at Choral Fixations (with an S) at gmail.com. Let us know what you think and how you're incorporating singing into your life right now.
Liz Walker 1:34
We're on Facebook; just search for Choral Fixation, and we're on Twitter too @ choral_fixation.
Jacqui 1:40
Be sure to Like and Subscribe everywhere you find your podcasts: Choral Fixation. I know: I'm legally mandated to end all of my conversations with Like and Subscribe.
Music Notes